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[Janson]

i think arch and carnifex summoned up why FL beats MMO's. (although i think it would be cool if the server was MMO sized in players playing at one time ) Also Carnifex, i bet we all will pull out FL in ten years or so and play again I keep pulling it out every other year myself...

anyhow, ill add another small peice saying that i find the FL sucks (sry) without a community. i spend most of my time RPing on the forums (partailly due to being unable to play :slaps RL:) but think that the RP makes it fun to play FL, why add a grind that will probably end up removing RP?

Summary: FL is an RP game, not an MMO. There are no goals, no objectives, and no finish lines except the ones you make for yourself (thus RP).

[Carnifex]

Current balance scheme remains unchanged.

I must have miss understood you when you said...

And if you work your way up from the weaker ship classes the curve isn't steep as it seems.

Please explain.

Nowadays everyone obtains a bomber char with simple /bank withdraw on their alt.

I've never had an RP that didn't revolve around my PvP and I've never ever fought anyone in a bomber. I bought one once, i flew it as far as the green zone and it still hasn't left that system (it's my vault out of convienience). I hate bombers. Slow, brutish.

If my fun is completely dependant on other players, what do you think my reaction is when I see four players online?

Correct me if I'm wrong but wont all the players who come here to grind their way to the shiney stuff be too busy, you know... grinding... to role play? I mean if they liked role play then they'd be here already wouldn't they?

[As9]

@Fadius

What you or your faction does in only limited by ones imagination. We have minign operations all the time with transports waiting to be filled by the miners so the goods can be sold to another base. A good faction leader will be able to involve it's members in the faction activity.

I s'pose we Outcasts can always summon more invisible fleets to combat. Uhh. Sorry, didn't want to sound sarcastic, but some of us need more than empty space and chat screen.

Our roleplay involves spreading our borders and hunting others.

Now, if we decide to build a base somewhere, we'll have to fulfill bunch of silly requirements anyway. Why not make us work in-game instead?

We would battle a boss for those rare permits and other junk and have fun roleplaying at the same time.


@Carnifex

And if you work your way up from the weaker ship classes the curve isn't steep as it seems.

Please explain.

We have ships like Light Scout (like that Starcrapper we get when we undock Manhattan for the first time), Medium Scout, Cruise/Thrust Interceptor. Compared to say, FAF they are weaker, no? CI on the other hand stands equal with the fighter classes in pvp but it still has weaker stats. And because of that its price is lower in-game.

Let's say you just started playing on the server. First two-three hours you spend doing missions to get to level 10. You can now fly a Medium Scout. After you buy it, you take harder missions and spend another three hours getting to level 20. After that you can settle in for a Heavy Scout (level 25) or CI (level 28). FAF would be level 32, Superiority 34 and Multirole 36. Fifteen hours total to get to level 36. Now you can use any combat ship you want with your leveled char since you are "experienced" enough. And that is all leveling you need to do as PvPer/roleplayer. Nothing has changed. Only how you acquire ships.

Nowadays everyone obtains a bomber char with simple /bank withdraw on their alt.

I've never had an RP that didn't revolve around my PvP and I've never ever fought anyone in a bomber. I bought one once, i flew it as far as the green zone and it still hasn't left that system (it's my vault out of convienience). I hate bombers. Slow, brutish.

What I've meant to say is that bomber is easily accessible to anyone who wants it. Its sole purpose is to destroy a BS. I had a chance to see it in action. Lets say you decide to log in with your unique Liberty Destroyer capship. No fighter can harm you.

With exp system hostile players wouldn't be able to just /bank withdraw money with their freshly made char. They'll either have to exchange their fighter for bomber, or level another character specifically for bomber. Gives you a breathing space. Sounds tedious for bombers? Not if you add another weaker bomber with lower lvl req (to be used against normal purchasable battleships/corvettes, not capship though).

If my fun is completely dependant on other players, what do you think my reaction is when I see four players online?

Correct me if I'm wrong but wont all the players who come here to grind their way to the shiney stuff be too busy, you know... grinding... to role play? I mean if they liked role play then they'd be here already wouldn't they?

Grindable items are faction permits, cosmetic junk and things like advanced thrusters. Basically you are grinding for luxury and customization. People constantly look for special parts, and I don't see them ignoring rp. But yeah I see your point. However you shouldn't expect much from those kind of players anyway. But you want to keep them playing for as long as possible in order to help the server population snowball.

This leveling system (not grinding) is far less tedious than in any other MMO. Your guns and shields are cheap as always. You grind not only for parts but items used in roleplay. Game remains all about the roleplay.

---

Well, I am done explaining. Next time I'll make sure to avoid words like "WoW" and "grind" because it caused you all to interpret my ideas in the worst possible way.

[Ghost]

I s'pose we Outcasts can always summon more invisible fleets to combat. Uhh. Sorry, didn't want to sound sarcastic, but some of us need more than empty space and chat screen.

Our roleplay involves spreading our borders and hunting others.

Now, if we decide to build a base somewhere, we'll have to fulfill bunch of silly requirements anyway. Why not make us work in-game instead?

We would battle a boss for those rare permits and other junk and have fun roleplaying at the same time.

I'm pretty sure these "silly requirements" that you speak of will be in-game tasks as well as forum RP. Its already been stated that these tasks will be a mixture of Trading, Mining and Fighting, there's no reason for a "boss fight".

As for the Outcast RP, you're only as limited as you make yourselves. I think its safe to say you guys are pretty PVP driven faction, I also think its safe to say that because of that you guys are often bored when the server population gets low.

My suggestion, get creative.

We have ships like Light Scout (like that Starcrapper we get when we undock Manhattan for the first time), Medium Scout, Cruise/Thrust Interceptor. Compared to say, FAF they are weaker, no? CI on the other hand stands equal with the fighter classes in pvp but it still has weaker stats. And because of that its price is lower in-game.

Its been proven over and over that no ship is "weaker" than the other. I've had my butt whooped by someone in a scout ship while I was in a FAF, I've killed CI's in a Bomber. The PVP aspect of this mod is based heavily on skill and play style. Making it and MMO type of leveling system would remove that aspect and I assure you a good amount of people would leave knowing that, that freedom had been taken out of the equation. I don't want spend days upon days to work for 60,000,000 Bomber or Superiority fighter. It has nothing to do with strength of the ship, I've lost battles against all kinds of ships, but it has everything to do with my play style which is something that FL has never dictated.   

Let's say you just started playing on the server. First two-three hours you spend doing missions to get to level 10. You can now fly a Medium Scout. After you buy it, you take harder missions and spend another three hours getting to level 20. After that you can settle in for a Heavy Scout (level 25) or CI (level 28). FAF would be level 32, Superiority 34 and Multirole 36. Fifteen hours total to get to level 36. Now you can use any combat ship you want with your leveled char since you are "experienced" enough. And that is all leveling you need to do as PvPer/roleplayer. Nothing has changed. Only how you acquire ships.

Again, that is just implimenting too much limitation. I know I'm already "experienced" enough to fly and fight in a Superiority Fighter or a Bomber because those are the ships that I am most relaxed and most efficient in. I don't want to be stuck in a small spec of a ship, zipping around the system at the speed of light because of the time I've spent in game.

Aside from that, I dont see roleplaying surviving in a system like that AT ALL. People would be too preoccupied getting "stronger" to want to interact with anyone other than fighting or defending themselves against/from weaker/stronger people. There's more to RP than the required "Die scum" and the unavoidable PVP battle after that. As it stands right now, FEW people in-game take RP if they even participate in it at all. 

What I've meant to say is that bomber is easily accessible to anyone who wants it. Its sole purpose is to destroy a BS. I had a chance to see it in action. Lets say you decide to log in with your unique Liberty Destroyer capship. No fighter can harm you.

With exp system hostile players wouldn't be able to just /bank withdraw money with their freshly made char. They'll either have to exchange their fighter for bomber, or level another character specifically for bomber. Gives you a breathing space. Sounds tedious for bombers? Not if you add another weaker bomber with lower lvl req (to be used against normal purchasable battleships/corvettes, not capship though).

Would they? Quite frankly, I haven't seen enough love for bombers to believe anybody would just make a new character to buy one and blow a person up. Its easier and more cost effective in that situation to simply run. Also the whole concept of a "bombers purpose" might be a bit of a bold suggestion. They're surprisingly effective in a dogfight. And for people like myself who don't like to bullet around the combat zone they're quite nice ships in general. Again, the system you're suggesting would hold people back from using the kind of ship that suits their play style.

Grindable items are faction permits, cosmetic junk and things like advanced thrusters. Basically you are grinding for luxury and customization. People constantly look for special parts, and I don't see them ignoring rp. But yeah I see your point. However you shouldn't expect much from those kind of players anyway. But you want to keep them playing for as long as possible in order to help the server population snowball.

This leveling system (not grinding) is far less tedious than in any other MMO. Your guns and shields are cheap as always. You grind not only for parts but items used in roleplay. Game remains all about the roleplay.

Weren't you talking about leveling up for "better" ships?
Thats a little less of a "cosmetic" and more a necessity if you ask me.
And no...I'd rather have a small community of people who actively interact with one another than bustling 100+ 24/7 pubserver full of people too focused on leveling up to give a damn about universe they're playing in.

Well, I am done explaining. Next time I'll make sure to avoid words like "WoW" and "grind" because it caused you all to interpret my ideas in the worst possible way.

I think it was more of the "Lets make Freelancer an MMO" concept that got to most of us 

[Anathosion]

I think what As9 has in mind is some task or purpus to do when server is low on numbers somthing what you can do while your faction is not online or the closest player is like in new york and level 8.
Like when you are trying to get sk it take you a long time but you are trying until you get it.
You need some kind of aim in the game, i know it is called freelancer but really what can you do if you are experienced player and bean around for a awhile and discovered all the systems.The only thing what you can do if server is low on numbers is either doing missions or trade or mine. I know it will be a 100 responses on what you can do but the truth is this are the only 3 hings you can do when there is only like 4 players online.

Don't get me wrong i love freelancer and i will be here until the end.

[fadius]

I think what As9 has in mind is some task or purpus to do when server is low on numbers somthing what you can do while your faction is not online or the closest player is like in new york and level 8.
Like when you are trying to get sk it take you a long time but you are trying until you get it.
You need some kind of aim in the game, i know it is called freelancer but really what can you do if you are experienced player and bean around for a awhile and discovered all the systems.The only thing what you can do if server is low on numbers is either doing missions or trade or mine. I know it will be a 100 responses on what you can do but the truth is this are the only 3 hings you can do when there is only like 4 players online.

Don't get me wrong i love freelancer and i will be here until the end.

Well, I believe this is up to faction leaders to hold events that include others. We can bting numbers back if we all work together and get things more active on the server. By events I dont mean some faction always attacking a base every saturday. We need to be more creative as factions.

Smuggling runs to break through Rheinland blockades to get H-Feul to Liberty for one. Mining Transport operations, actual organized trade missions and include house factions for escorts, the options here are numerous. We as factions and faction leaders need to work together on events to spur server activity. I know myself not being a very good PvPer, do not look forward to conquest type events. But smuggling runs, trading or minning events do attract my attention. Smuggling, trading and other such things also will bring the PvPers as they would be needed as escorts to defend from hostiles. Even if the only hostiles are NPC's.

[(V)assacre]

I think there are valuable lessons to be learned from looking at MMO's like WoW and EvE-online. Theres a reason why these games are this popular and I dont think that learning from a working formula is something bad.

Take EvE for example. Theres a lot of stuff there wich gave me ideas for freelancer. However due to EvE's hardcore nature me and corpse never got around to implementing those on SW-WT.

Example
- fully player driven economy
- realistic ship loss
- ship insurance
- Hardcore pvp while giving newbies a safe place to start off ( starter systems )
- Cloaking devices
- Non Admin Interferance in politics or pvp ( Griefing )
- Corperate Theft and Espionage

The list goes on and on.
However while i disagree with cerrtain things I have to agree with Ogu when he says that its the FL engine thats limiting us not the Dev teams wishes or desires.

[FriendlyFire]

Ah, so you want auto-targeting with damage based on dice rolls, Massacre?

There are good things about EVE, but also bad things. To be quite honest FL could've reached critical mass if it wasn't for the absolutely craptastic job Microsoft has made at marketing/supporting/expanding the game and how they basically stopped DA from finishing it.

Without a marketing powerhorse, it's hard to get new people in. It's really just that. EVE has the word of mouth factor because they HAVE reached critical mass already. WoW has the name Blizzard behind it. Both also have massive developer support. We have none of that.

It's already good we've come this far, but to be honest no changing of mechanics is going to change the fact that marketing is what makes or breaks a game's popularity.

[(V)assacre]

what dice rolls, damage is based on static numbers with a chance to resist certain damage types...

edit for language.
edit 2 for typ0's

also note that non of my remarks had anything to do with marketing and everything with gameplay but clearly staff is to biased to see past the EvE-online name.

[FriendlyFire]

Every MMORPG uses dice rolls in one way or another. You cannot always predict what each hit will do, even if you can statistically give an approximation over time.

And I was joking, if that wasn't obvious. I'm playing EVE and so are a few other people I know.